that does it for "the weekend" this saturday morning. thank you to eugene daniels for sitting and for us today. we will see you back here tomorrow at 8:00 a.m. eastern. we will talk about president biden's re-election action -- efforts. just want to address the elephant in the room. >> i am the only guy in new york right now. apparently you are all there for some party. this is a much larger bottle than the one you had. let's just see how this works. some boss is about to text me.

that was busier than i expected. i'm going to hand this to my friend joe for a minute. you have yourself a fantastic rest of the day and a great party tonight. ali velshi starts now. good morning, it is go saturday, april 27th. donald trump goes by many names and titles these days. he is at once the former president of the united states d and the presumptive republican nominee. if you were in a monastic courtroom where his first criminal trial strapped its second week, you may have heard him referred to as the defendant. that is a first for a former president of the united states. to the nine supreme court t justices this week, he was known as the petitioner, asking them to grant him immunity for

criminal prosecution. we can now add one more child to that list. unindicted co-conspirator. that is the title donald trump has been given in two cases brought against loyalists who allegedly participated in the effort to overturn the results of the 2020 election. the latest indictment comes out of arizona, where this woman, the attorney general, chris mays, pressed charges against 18 people for their roles in that states the collectors scheme. they include rudy giuliani, parker meadows, and other me prominent trump allies, and, notably, lawyers. the indictment alleges those 18 defendants, "schemed to prevent unlawful transfer of the presidency to keep unindicted co-conspirator one, donald trump, in office against the nd will of arizona's voters." that news dropped in the middle of a very busy week for the former president and his attorneys. trump was also separately named an unindicted co-conspirator in

michigan's investigation into the collectors scheme. 16 people have been charged tii michigan's case. comes we can begin with opening statements on monday in a criminal trial in there, which was followed by the prosecution calling its first witness, the former ceo of american media er inc., the pleasure of "the national enquirer" and other tabloids and magazines. over the course of four days, david pecker testified about a crucial meeting between himself, trump, and trumps the personal and fixer michael cohen. prosecutors allege it was at that meeting that the trio hashed out a plan to help donald trump's political chances by suppressing potentially scandalous stories about him. the strategy came to be known as "catch and kill." catch a story and kill it. it may not seem like there are any similarities between trumps trial in new york and that the collectors scheme about, for one thing, both of them involve the falsification of documents

and records. both cases alleged the former president worked with others ind furtherance of a crime. in addition to the 18 people charged in arizona this week, as i mentioned, 16 people in michigan were charged with felonies last year for their roles in the fake elector effort in that state. six others in nevada have been charged and in georgia last summer, the fulton county district attorney rest racketeering charges against trump and 18 others, a charge typically used to take down organized crime. four of those defendants have since reached the agreements with the prosecutors. fulton county is the only jurisdiction prosecuting trump himself in this matter but that case is bogged down. fulton county and arizona are c the two jurisdictions pursuing prosecutions against close trump allies and those indictments are worth reading. the fulton county indictment lists 161 instances prosecutors described as, "overt act in ri furtherance of the conspiracy."

meanwhile, the arizona sp indictment provides additional details that give a fuller zoil picture of trumps teams multistate effort to subvert democracy in 2020. george's indictment, for example, mentions a man named greg safsten. greg safsten is now one of the 18 defendants in arizona accused of helping to organize the meeting of the fake collectors and serving as a ec fake elector himself. similarly, arizona's indictment lays out the extensive pressure campaign to coerce rusty ai bowers, speaker of the arizona house of representatives, to call a special session to unlawfully appoint trump collectors. soon after, bowers was getting hundreds of emails demanding he do his constitutional duty and appoint trump loyal electors.

no fewer than six the defendants contacted rusty bowers either privately or publicly on social media to get him to cooperate. george's indictment completes that the chair. it adds that trump was also part of that pressure campaign. he himself, donald trump, called rusty bowers at least twice during that same time frame, including once or twice around christmas day to get him on board with the unlawful plan. he told then-president trump, "i voted for you, . it worked f you, i campaigned for you, i just won't do anything illegal for you." joining me now is the democratic victory of state of arizona, adrian fontes. in his previous role as the maricopa county recorder, he oversaw the administration of the 2020 elections in arizona's largest county and witnessed the threats against election workers and against

democracy. secretary adrian fontes, good to see you, thank you for being with us. >> thank you so much for having me, how are you doing this morning question >> i am well, thank you. you were on the floor front lines of seeing how this is happening in terms of voting. the thing about this case that is so interesting, like when you read the georgia case, to go from thinking this was a bumbling band of fools trying to get things their way into g something that seems much more sophisticated. that is what this arizona indictment outlines. >> yes, i think one of the important things we need to an realize here is, one of the complaints is this has come to slow. at the end of the day, the attorney general, chris mays in arizona, is a very thoughtful and careful prosecutor. she and her team across and all the t's and dotting the i's to make sure these criminal defendants are going to have their rights upheld. they are presumed innocent until proven guilty. but, at the same time, the grand jurors were presented

with sufficient evidence to bring these charges. this was not a decision by some prosecutor, there were somewhere between 16 and 23 grand jurors who decided to return a true bill and start the criminal prosecution in arizona, which, as you have on indicated, is connected in many ways to a lot of what else happened across the country, the pattern and practice. the really important thing here is that the process be preserved. americans depend on their elections the way they depend on their criminal justice system. to process is what is essentially american and we have to preserve these processes with integrity. >> this is your job, you are the second highest elected statewide official. you are also responsible for overseeing elections. a lot of the people involved in this, not named as co- conspirators but a lot of the a people involved in telling you that the election was fake in arizona and michigan and those

consequences are still in power, and was still very active in politics in arizona. this isn't about the past, they still are active in what looks like the misrepresentation of democracy in your state. >> some of them are in our state legislature. this is a frustratingly slow process, again, for many people. and, i get that. bottom line is this. if we are going to fight to preserve and protect our democracy, and more importantly the rule of law generally, we have to take the circumstances t for what they are, we have to be thoughtful, we have to be thorough, and we have to practice what we preach. we cannot let emotion or politics get in the weight of these things. again, remember, these are processes laid out ahead of time. they have been thoroughly vetted through the regular judicial segment of our democracy that is the grand jury process, the criminal defendants will be afforded all of their rights and it doesn't matter who is involved and what level of government or what

part of power. in the united states, the person is above the law and that is the principle that we need to continue to practice, not just preach. >> here's a thing that i am worried about in arizona, where all these races were remarkably tight. and some of your other candidates who won statewide office did so, in fact, with the help of some republicans who said we are not setting up for this nonsense that the republican party of arizona is involved in. however, this, the trump people would have you believe that the separate states of electors with her in case they want an audit or they won a court case, they would be in a position to east advanced donald trump's claim for the presidency. that is not what it became. it became a thing in which people who knew they were not electors said they were electors, in which people who knew otherwise convinced others to sign letters and documents to say that they are electors. how do you prevent this from happening again in this year's election in a place like ti arizona? that, again, will fall to you

to some degree. >> will, we prevent it by doing exactly what we are doing right now. we work closely with the proper authorities, in this case the attorney general, and we move forward with the kinds of cases and the kinds of prosecutions that are appropriate under the law. we stay steady, we stay firm. at the end of the day, democracy will prevail. look, people are being held accountable. we have outstanding indictments at this time against some county officials, who refused to certify elections. here's the deal. if you want to mess around and find out, go ahead but you are going to be facing the rule of law, you will be facing some sober prosecutions. isn't this what americans really want? we want that normalcy, we want a predictable process, regardless of who wins and who loses at the end of the day, we want to get back to the business of america. that is what we are presenting, that is what we are trying to make sure people understand as a deterrent to this kind of wackiness in the future. >> the arizona codefendant,

unindicted co-conspirator number three is your opponent the 2022 arizona secretary of state grace, he is an election denier, as were other top candidates for top state offices in arizona in 2022. you and i were there just before the election talking about this. is there ioa reckoning inside t arizona republican party about this ? i know there was some reckoning because a lot of those people want and supported you and other people who were not election deniers, that was there on protest. but, that wasn't a structural reckoning within the party. is that happening, as far as you know? >> we do know there have been rough times in the arizona h republican party. i'm not going to wax on the politics of it but they do have a new party chair because of a little controversy that happened very recently. and, there is, you know, a

little bit of infighting over there. the reality is this. i'm not concerned with the politics, i'm not concerned with the actual outcomes of the candidate races in our elections. my team and i, across the entire state, are focused on , making sure that our opinions, whether they are political or not, are separated from our duties, which are duties to es every single filter across the state of arizona. election officials in the united states of america followed the same sort of mantra. we are okay with seeing the political fights happening around us. the problem is when we get dragged in with false accusations, with lies, and with conspiracy theories accusing us of things that we did not do, like mark finchem did. some of the races in arizona were narrow, let me remind you, my victory against mark finchem was not. >> you and i talked right after that because yours was decided quite quickly. you have been in this business for a while, you know it, you do with the threats feel like , you know how to handle them. there are lots of people in your state and around this country who are volunteers or, they are not officeholders, they are not notable people in

society but they are holding up democracy on their own, how do you see that unfolding in arizona ? there are a lot of people involved in the demonstration of elections last election is that i don't want to get involved with this anymore, this is absolute nonsense. >> i'm very encouraged by e,the way that folks have stepped into some of these offices. we lost senior election officials in 12 out of our 15 counties, representing almost 92% of our voters in the last several years. but, the folks who have come in have come in wide-eyed. they understand the nature of the possible threats that they will be facing. we have trained them from the secretary of state's office in such a direct way that we really know how to do it. as you mentioned, i am a prior election administrator at maricopa county. knowing the lingo, knowing the process as well, we are giving them the support that they needt and they are stepping up. while i am concerned with their safety, and i do hope the fbi and doj and all law enforcement

continue to aggressively prosecute and pursue these folks who will issue these threats, the folks who are doing the work are standing up. they know the work is so important to our democracy. they understand their value, even if most of the american public doesn't ever see them or hear them. so, i'm really encouraged. i think they are doing phenomenally well and we are gearing up for a good solid 2024 election cycle on the administration side. but the politics be what they are. >> you made me think we really have to highlight these people t more. we really have to make them into the euros that they are because we take for granted elections just get run but they don't, as we see. real people run them. thank you, sir, good to see you as always. adrian fontes, secretary of state of arizona, good to have you on the store so. america is facing a free- speech reckoning. i will speak with penn and erica ceo about the protests that her organization is facing. i will also speak to to go authors on the other side of

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hundreds of people, mostly students, have been arrested on college campuses this week as protests against israel's war in gaza continued to spread. process encampments have been established on more than 40 college campuses across the united states and canada. northeastern university released a statement this morning saying numbers police in cooperation with local law enforcement began clearing protest in kimmons on the boston campus. there are reports of a number of arrests. earlier this week, at the university of texas, 500 students walked out of class demanding the university divest from manufacturers supplying weapons to israel. 57 people were arrested. emory university, 28 people were arrested by atlanta police

and state troopers, with officers using pepper balls and what they called "chemical irritants." at least two professors were forcibly arrested at emory. cnn, scott the moment a officer grabbed one professor, who was doing nothing remotely provocative, and takes her to the ground. take a look. this might be disturbing. >> let go of me. >> get on the ground. get on the ground, i said. >> you people are fascists. shame on you.

>> i am a professor. >> you can hear her saying i am a professor. university of southern california has canceled its main stage commencement ceremony after nearly 100 people were arrested at a campus protest on wednesday night. this follows the university's decision to cancel the commencement speech of its valedictorian, a south asian american muslim and outspoken supporter of palestinians in gaza. what is happening on campuses across the country was inspired by a protest that started at columbia university in new york last week. about 100 students established and encampment on the university's south lawn demanding columbia withdraw investments in companies they deem as profiting from israeli policy in gaza and the west bank. columbia's president called in the nypd to break up the encampment last week and more than 100 students were arrested. as protests at columbia are still happening 11 days later. columbia student protesters have been negotiating with university officials to find a solution. as of yesterday, student

negotiators save talks have reached a stalemate and they intended to continue their encampment until their demands are met. yesterday, columbia university senate, which is made up of faculty, students, and administrators, voted in favor of a resolution that calls for an investigation into the schools leadership. it accuses the administration of violating established protocols, undermining academic freedom, jeopardizing free speech, and preaching to process rights of those students and professors. next, the history of protest on college campuses and the responsibility these institutions have to protect and foster free speech. ree spe and long-lasting gain scent beads. part of the irresistible scent collection from gain! did you ever worry we wouldn't get to enjoy this? [jeff laughs maniacally] (inner monologue) seriously, look at these guys. they are playing great. meanwhile, i'm on the green and all i can think about is all the green i'm spending on 3 kids in college. not to mention the kitchen remodel, and we'd just remodel the bathrooms last month. with empower, i get all of my financial questions answered. so i don't have to worry. so you're like a guru now? oh here it comes— join 18 million americans and take control of your financial future with a real time dashboard and real live conversations.

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a test or approve a medication. we didn't have to worry about any of those things thanks to the donations. and our family is forever grateful because it's completely changed our lives. colleges universities have a long history as the epicenters of social movements in this country and around the world. in the 1960s and 70s, a wave of activism swept the country and some college student led the church, from fighting for civil rights to protesting against the war in vietnam and the draft to demanding the divestment from south africa in protest of its apartheid state. colleges and universities were

the birthplace and breeding ground for movements many of us look back on with nostalgic pride, an area of activism and reckoning, when they come couple of america demanded they be heard, demanding change. while that was happening, these protests were met with pushback. some of it was violent. this is columbia university, 1968, when students protested against the vietnam war, along with other issues, occupying a building. 700 students were arrested. this is kent state university, where thousands of students participated in antiwar protests on campus. the school called in the national guard and on may 4th, 1970, ohio's national guard killed four students at kent state, nine others were shot but survived. in the aftermath, universities and varying responses. in some cases, it prompted more control on student demonstrations. at kent state, the school changed its policies, given the right to forcibly remove students or faculty from campus to the school. as time passed, many universities acknowledged the importance of protest with some

recommitting to free speech and free expression. in 1974, yields leadership completed a report called the woodward report and adopted its principles. stated students should have the "right to think the unthinkable, discuss the unmentionable, and challenged the unchallengeable, to curtail free expression strikes twice at international intellectual freedom for whoever deprives another of the right to state unpopular views necessarily deprives others of the right to listen to those views." what we are seeing play out on college campuses today started out relatively small, with about 100 students on columbia's assault lawn demanding the school divest from weapons manufacturers and companies doing business with israel. that all changed when columbia's president ordered the nypd to break up the shipment and 108 students were arrested. over the last week, hundreds of students have been arrested at

nyu, emerson college, and emory university, you t austin, yale, princeton, ohio state, michigan, indiana, it's a long list. ensuring the physical safety of students on campus is critical, it is a responsibility these institutions have. what these institutions should be doing is fomenting intellectual discomfort for the students at the same time. if a university is not exposing students to different, even unpleasant points of view, they could be failing. shielding students from ideas or views one finds offensive is the antithesis of what an education is about and responding to overwhelmingly peaceful student protests with arrests, evictions, suspensions and expulsions, actions that are not only deepening tension and division on our campuses and gunned but also stifling the debate universities are supposed welcome. it is more critical than ever institutions for learning foster speech and expression while guaranteeing the safety of their students. it's complicated. joining me now is marianne frank, a professor of intellectual property, technology, civil rights law at

which washington law school. her upcoming book is called "fearless speech, breaking free from the first amendment." good to see you again, thank you for being with us. i'm going to have you play reporter for a moment. i want to have you talk about some stuff going on on george washington's campus. you are at the law school but on the main campus, there are protests underway and the school requested the d.c. police remove the protesters. interestingly, the police said, given that the protests are peaceful, they were going to decline that. in new york, we had something similar where police were called and columbia, they did remove the protesters and also said the protesters were peaceful. this complicates things. what exactly are we looking to do and what does success look like? >> it is really hard to know what success looks like. i think, as you mentioned before, the balance between trying to support students while they are expressing deeply controversial, many uncomfortable ideas while also ensuring everybody safety, that

is the top spot a lot of universities are finding themselves in right now. >> you have talked about some of the tactics that have been employed to deal with student protests throughout history, and , in some cases, to demonize student organizations. it is stuff because this kind of depends on where you sit. there are a whole bunch of people who think what some of the students are doing is outrageous and offensive to them and they should be dealt with. that is the conundrum we are up against when it comes to a university. >> it is interesting because we have been hearing, especially in the last 10 years or so, all of these strong assessments or assertions about free speech on campus. we've seen, especially people on the right and people who consider themselves to be defenders of civil liberties, saying together students need to be more open to these controversial ideas, campuses need to protect free speech more often and those arguments

were being used when the kinds of activities that were happening were speaker invitations to people who were often anti-somatic, who were very much homophobic or misogynist and the students who were protesting those kinds of issues were told you just need to be more open-minded and think about free speech. now that students have taken the reins themselves and said we want to speak out about important political issues, some of those very same people are now suddenly saying no, that is not what we meant by free speech, really this can students should be controlled, they should be arrested, they should be removed. >> the crux of this matter, particularly for students and their parents, is the idea that when we send our kids to universities, we do believe the university has some responsibility for their physical safety. we do believe that the university has some responsibility in sort of maintaining the parameters of speech and control. but, we should expect that the university causes our kids to be exposed to things that might be uncomfortable to them and

that sort of incidentally but as part of our pluralistic view of education. how do you think this all comes together? what does it look like for a university to say we will make sure we keep you physically safe but you might not feel that safe intellectually? >> this is what supposedly schools were doing a few years ago, the very famed chicago principals were making that kind of stand, and a lot of people interested those at the time, saying you should be open to these uncomfortable ideas while being physically safe. but, i think what this reveals, this particular moment right now, reveals that no matter how absolutist a person seems about free speech, and this is exactly why it is we should be skeptical about people who are absolutist, everyone has a line. everybody has some topic, some kind of content that they think , yes, i'm for free speech except for this. that is, in some ways, something we have to confront, these are not going to be easy answers. you can't just say we support

intellectual freedom but not any kind of physical endangerment and that will be the end of it. these are complicated matters and i think what is really interesting here, and important, is to point out the hypocrisy of those who have been saying for 10 years the more open to free speech, who are now saying arrested the students for engaging in free speech. we really need to think about why our theories of free speech and our law about free speech isn't doing what it was supposed to do, ideally, which is to settle these kinds of matters in advance and make it easy for us to say what is protected and what is not. we have to confront the fact that these things are messy and difficult and complicated. about one thing we know for sure, what we should have learned from history, exactly is the things you were describing before, is that vilifying students, calling for the national guard to come in, we know where that leads. we know that those people are never on the side of free

speech and they are never on the right side of history. >> doesn't tend to end well when you bring policing, national guard onto your campuses. all of those free-speech issues aside. professor, thank you for joining us this morning. it is a complicated issue and we will keep talking about it. marianne franks, president and legislative policy director at the cyber rights initiative. author of the book "the cult of constitution, our deadly devotion to guns and free speech." today's meeting of the ali velshi band book club will explore the core principle that guides our meetings every week, a hard look at censorship and freedom of expression. don't miss my conversation with pam america ceo suzanne nossel and two others who pulled out of that organization's literary award show due to the handling of the war in gaza. gaza. diabetes can serve up a lot of questions. like what is your glucose and can you have more carbs? before you decide with the freestyle libre 3 system know your glucose and where it's heading

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plans. dozens of tornadoes touched down across five states from yesterday and this morning. nebraska caught the brunt of this. take a look at this massive funnel cloud churning across the interstate highway in lincoln, nebraska. you can see cars driving on the road in that image. some residents say the tornadoes came and left quickly but left a ton of damage after they ripped through structures, destroyed in an instant, soon the rebuilding will get underway. in lancaster, county, nebraska, the sheriff says a building collapsed with about 70 people inside after a twister hit. everyone was evacuated. there were some injuries, however. in iowa, more than 120 homes and businesses were battered. 4 injuries reported there. the severe weather threat is far from over. more storms expected over an even larger swath of the united states. 33 million people from texas to the great lakes are in the path of this weather system. stick with msnbc throughout the day, we will have updates as they become available. we will be back after a quick

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america is facing a free- speech reckoning. one group that has been built up in the discourse is one of the foremost organizations for the freedom to read and write. pen america. banned book members are familiar with pen america. we featured it's data on book binning initiatives and censorship since the inception of our book club. i speak and at great length with ceo suzanne nossel. today's edition would include literature or an author. will explore the core principles that guide our meetings every single week, a hard look at expression and censorship. today, we discussed with the freedom to read, to write, and to speak looks like in today's america. this is not black and white. the line is not that thin. i'm going to present this the

best way we know how to on the book club, with the whole story. here's how it goes. just yesterday, pen america announced the cancellation of its 2024 world voices festival. the annual festival, which was scheduled to begin on may 8 was set to feature writers from around the world. the world voices festival was founded 20 years ago by the writer and activist salman rushdie. this comes after hundreds of authors and staffers called on pen america to take a stronger stance against the israeli offensive in gaza. everything came to a head this week with the issues dating back to the initial hamas attack on israel on october 7th. three days after hamas terrorists reached the border between gaza and israel, killing more than 1000 people and taking dozens of hostages, pen america released a statement, writing in part, " pen america deplores the premeditated and vicious attack launched against israeli civilians, resulting in more than 900 deaths, countless wounded, and scores kidnapped , held her hostage, and unaccounted for." the intercept reports, "a week later, 30 staff percent

management letter protesting the statement for failing to include historical context about israel's occupation of palestine and for failing to address the issues of free expression that have already risen in israel's retaliatory war in gaza, including the killing of journalists." in the days that passed, pen america issued two statements, one with a more direct emphasis on the nearly 3000 people and 11 journalists who had died at that point in gaza. a second statement condemned the wave of cancellations of events that featured palestinian writers and artists across the country. that included an event that was told at the 92nd street why, one of new york's premier cultural venues, which we did a writer critical of israel, and the decision by the frankfurt book fair to cancel its award ceremony honoring a palestinian writer. on october 25th, the original charter called for an immediate cease-fire in gaza. pen america, however, did not. in december, 41 pen america

staffers past and present tried again. they sent another letter to company leadership, reason, "continued concerns about the organization's shortcomings in mounting a principal defense of free expression." in the months that followed, the cadence continued. pen america's los angeles branch cosponsored an event that featured an actress who had publicly opposed calls for a cease-fire and had been criticized for her inflammatory social media posts. that resulted in two high profile authors suffering tires with pen america . at the event, a palestinian author who had worked with pen america was forcibly removed when she began protesting the appearance of mayim bialik. then on february 8, another letter urged "the new york times" to do more. "we demand pen america released an official statement about the 225 poets, playwrights, journalists, scholars, and novelists killed in gaza and

name their murderer, israel, a zionist colonial state funded by the u.s. government." by march 10th, 1300 authors have put their name to that open letter. pen america did not respond. on march 20th, in the wake of numerous authors withdrawing from pen america's world voices festival, pen america called for a cease-fire , as the international charter had done five months earlier, and announced a $100,000 was and pledged to the netherlands- based emergency fund for palestinian writers in need. that didn't and the protests. just last week, roughly 30 of the 87 nominees for pen america's literary awards withdrew their names from consideration. the open letter they wrote states in part, " pen america statements and actions, and often the lack there of, demonstrate not only an immoral reliance on corporate dollars also a serious deficit of courage. pen america states the core of its mission is to support the

right to disagree but among writers of conscience, there is no disagreement . there is fact and fiction. the fact is that israel is leading the genocide of the palestinian people. pen america's perpetuation of false equivalences, there is equivocation, and normalizing, is indeed a betrayal ." a representative for pen america responded, "the perspective there is no disagreement and that there are, among us, final arbiters of fact and fiction which to us as a demand to foreclose dialogue in the name of intellectual conformity and one at odds with the charter and what we stand for as an organization." the award ceremony scheduled for this monday are canceled. the world voices festival scheduled for may 8th is also canceled. suzanne nossel, the president of pen america joins me next. i also talked to two of the authors who withdrew from the literary awards later in the show. don't go anywhere. where. but this is a not flash.

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thanks to governor newsom and leaders in sacramento, we can lift workers out of poverty. stop the race to the bottom in the fast-food industry. and build a california for all of us. thank you governor and our california lawmakers for fighting for what matters. before the break, i outlined the month-long controversy and conflict between the nonprofit pen america, and some of its members, to say the organization is not adequately condemned israel's offensive in gaza, which led to the cancellation of pen america's literary awards and world voices festival. joining me now is the ceo of pen america, suzanne nossel. we often rely on pen america's important data on book tanning and i was supposed to present

at the literary awards before they were canceled. susan, this is a tough conversation. i tried to set it up as fairly as i could. what did we get right, what did we get wrong? >> i think a lot was right. i will say one thing, which is on the 17th of october, we issued a statement decrying what was happening to civilians in gaza. that was prepared and put out before we received a note from our staff. so, that happened quite quickly, in the early days of the conflict. we were standing in solidarity. we wanted to make those general expressions. from that time on, we made the commitment, we are going to focus specifically on the free expression angles of this, we are not a unitarian organization, we are not an organization that engages in or has expertise on issues of armed conflict. we have strived since then to stick to our lane, decrying infringements on freedom of speech, on what is happening to

writers inside gaza, we call of the government of israel many times about their rhetoric against journalists, just recently about the effort to cancel al jazeera, about attacks on culture. we also do look at the complexity of the situation. we don't view it through a stable, binary lens. we are, by design, a big tent organization. we feel recognizing and perfecting that complexity in all our work is essential. >> let's talk about that. some of the criticism of pen america was, as i wrote and will talk to others about this later, that there is no two sides to this issue and the response of pen america is there might be many sides to some of these issues. but, it is tricky because while you are not a unitarian organization, pen america is, like the ali velshi book club, we are advocates for speech and freedom of speech. we focus on authors that might

not be to the tastes of some of our viewers. the point is you read it if you want, we don't think the state should on it. how do you measure the role used to play as an actual advocacy organization when it comes to issues like this, which are so fraught? >> it is tough. i'm not going to pretend it has been easy. but we try to do is read all the analysis, understand all the perspectives, and reflected to the best of our ability what it means to stand up for free expression but also to stick clearly to our mission and not deviate. something that has been important for us is we do align with and partner with all sorts of organizations. we have writers with all sorts of beliefs are part of pen america. we tell them up front, we are a free expression organization. there will be things, whether it is criminal justice reform or environmental protection, that you are engaged with that we are not engaged with because it goes beyond our mission. that is what we tried to adhere to in this context. we also are, by design, a big tent. we are an organization of people that disagree. i often say if you hadn't

founded pen america 100 years ago, we couldn't put it to together today because we couldn't get so many writers to agree on anything. it has been the core of an imperiled writer in prison banned book, that unifies everybody. in this context, what was a schism has cracked wide open and that is not just at pen america, that is on in our wider society, where it has become difficult to talk across or even acknowledge these differences and there is a sense that by so doing, you are legitimizing something with which you deeply disagree but i would say the essence of pen america is you have to keep the dialogue open, no matter how passionately you feel. >> and so the case of the frankfurt book festival or in the case of the 92nd wife, they canceled speakers. and so, do you feel that penn

got wrapped up in the fact that organizations that were supposed to stand for writers and speakers, in some cases, uncomfortable saying 92nd street why got it wrong on this one. did you get swept up on the now you better get it right? >> sense, we spoke out vociferously and immediately about both of those incidences and many other incidences of forces being canceled in the cultural ground by virtue of their opinions. mostly palestinian forces expressing outrage about the war. we have been at the forefront of defending those people's rights to have their say, the idea that they should not be the platform were canceled just because that is their message. it is necessary message that needs to be in our discourse. i think this is something a little bit different. it is the notion that every organization, in order to participate with them, they've got to adhere to a certain fixed set of principles and if you don't do that, you are off- limits. the fact is, in our

constituency, there are all kinds of different views. and, it is very sad for us to see that coming apart. the thing i would say we've been most proud of is being this, in a moment of unprecedented polarization in american society, being an organization where people come together. in december at our annual general meeting, we had zionists up on stage with a palestinian leader, very strident critical of the israeli government and it was a conversation, a respectful exchange where people learned things. light bulbs shined and you could see that there was a bit of an awakening as people hurt out one another. and, our effort is to keep that dialogue alive. >> suzanne, thanks for coming on, we appreciate it and i know this is a tough time but we have appreciated the work that has been done that you have helped us do in terms of understanding book banning in this country and freedom of speech and we will continue this conversation.

we appreciate the time you've taken to explain the situation at pen. suzanne nossel is the ceo of pen america, the author of the book "dirt to speak ." still ahead, i will bring you another side of this critical conversation about the future of free speech and free its mission in america. i will speak with two authors who withdrew their nomination for the literary awards. plus, after the election interference cases in arizona, georgia, and michigan have in common ? this man for one. people connect the web of crimes, next. another hour of velshi begins right now.

donald trump goes by many names and titles. is at once the former president of the united states and perceptive republican presidential nominee. if you were in the manhattan courtroom where his first criminal trial just about it's second week, you may have heard him refer to as the defendant, a first for a former president of the united states. to the 90 people justices, he was known as the petitioner, asking them to grant him immunity from criminal prosecution. we can now add one more title to that list, unindicted co- conspirator. that is the title trump has been given in two cases brought against loyalists who allegedly participated in the effort to overturn the results of the 2020 election. the latest indictment comes out of arizona, attorney general christmas press charges against 18 people for their roles in that state speak electeds scheme. they include rudy giuliani, mark meadows, and other prominent trump allies and literally lawyers. the indictment alleges those 18 defendants "schemed to prevent the lawful transfer of the presidency to keep unindicted co-conspirator number one, donald trump, and office against the will of arizona's voters." that was